Trinidad's new Caribbean Airlines will no longer carry the image of the steelpan instrument on its planes. Here is a look at the new planes and the previous BWIA airlines logo.
Not important for a painting of pan to be a logo on a plane. Besides its two different companies. One will cease to exist December 31st 2006 midnight. One will come in to existence Jan, 1st 2007.
It will be more important for Pantrinbago to negotiate special discounted air travel rates for pan's most distinguished players, developers, arrangers etc. Special rates for pan bands etc. Pantrinbago should issue a magazine every four months of pan's progress internationally and highlight pan's development worldwide and pan men plights and successes world wide and have CA distribute the magazine on it's aircrafts. Pantrinbago can have CA collect a special donation to help sick and old pan men. Pantrinbago should have CA distribute for sale DVD's of past Panoramas and special photo albums etc. All monies collected should be accounted for and given to sick pan men and women.
These are the real "pictures" and logo of pan to be highlighted. Not some half drawn painted pan on the body of CA's planes. That has not helped one darn thing for pan in the past.
Sidd I don't have a problem with Patrick Arnolds position on the Pan logo being on Trinidad and Tobago's national airline. It is his job as president of Pantrinbago to be the number one advocate for pan. If he can get the picture of a pan tattooed on the prime minister forehead, he should. However, it sure would have been nice if he had also accomplished all the other things you mentioned.
I think the controversy with the pan and bird is BWIA (BWEE) was T&T's -- the mecca of pan --airline, but Caribbean Airlines speaks to external involvement/management/ownership, as my understanding goes.
I just wonder why the wider population was not made aware of the change to the Bird before the launch of new airline.
One of the chief problems with pan is that we still treat it after some 75 years of development as a novelty musical instrument requesting novelty things from important personalities or companies instead of requesting actual physical help in terms of development finance, real industrial advertising, sales of various products attached to the pan, financial help for important industry players in the pan world. We do not have to beg anyone for remain beggers like this. If CA wanted to place a pan logo they would have done it already. To request CA to change the bird logo and place a pan logo instead is the heights of foolishness. The CA multi millionaire owners will simply look at the request as a foolish one and not bother with it. But if you ask CA to incorporate a business deal by allowing CA to sell DVDs and CDs of pannists and in this way keep commissions for the company they will surly say, "Lets examine how it can be accomplished".
When you approach multi millionaires you approach them not to beg from them, but to show them how they could continue making more millions, while assisting you in your projects. If you ask Virgin Atlantic boss this question, he will say "Lets talk". The moral is when you are asking big industrialists, dont ask for any thing small. They wont bother with you. Ask for something really big that bigs them up more, then they will respond. The problem is just this with Arnold and Pantrinbago. They have gotten to accoustomed with "handouts" and begging for very little. They just have no business sense at all and dont know how to ask for actual capital costs which remains assets rather than expenditures.
I suppose you mean public to be a state enterprise -one run by the state for the state. It's a private company and public company simutaneosly and not dependent on govt funds. That was the flaw of BWIA. Airlines need to be funded by shareholders who want to make profits. Then it will work. If it is a state enterprise dependent on govt funds then no one needs to work hard enough to make a profit. Certain kinds of companies should never be state enterprises. An airline is one. It needs to make money to maitain the high costs and make profits at the same time.
As a panwoman from the Virgin Islands, I share Patrick Arnold's disappointment in the loss of the steel pan on the planes. I wonder if there was any kind of copyright/logo issue? Did BWIA 'own' the steelpan image for its airline and the restructured airline doesn't have the right to use it? Bummer
The company has supposedly undergone a corporate make over. Most people had very bad experiences with BWIA. This "new" company wants to separate itself from BWIA's baggage. A Caribbean Airlines official who was recently on TnT radio, stated that one of the main goals of Caribbean Airlines is to attract foreign passengers who in the past preferred to travel with the other available airlines to Trinidad and Tobago.
The removal of the pan logo from the planes does send an ominous signal about the climate steelpan musicians will have to operate in and the future of steelpan in Trinidad. In addition, this change speaks volumes about the mentality of TnT and reality of how the majority of Trinidad's people think and feel as it relates to the steelpan instrument. It is unfortunate that they did not realize that having the steelpan image on their airlines was one of the few things that TnT received much respect for from other countries.
I doubt there are any copyright issues if any that couldn't be easily solved. This was a cold calculated decision. I hope some other carrier in the region picks up the logo.
BWIA's pan painting is owned by it. It cannot be copied unto CA's planes. If CA wishes to put on an image it will have to be differently designed and owned by them. People must understand that the pan (musical instrument) itself is in public domain. Anyone can make it. However, the acknowledgement that pan first originated from Trinidad & Tobago is internationally recognized and accepted. We don't have to force anyone to accept this. If we do, we cause people to turn away from it. Any airline can put on an image of a pan on their plane. It is that public and international and no one stop them from doing it. T&T does not have copyrights to any images of the pan except possibly the one BWIA had. If we paint something in a particular way, that painting can be copyrighted. Others may paint a similar object but it must not be exactly the same image. There are many images of the pan on the internet as well as in international magazines. Has anyone objected? It would be foolish to do so.
When I say that we still treat the pan as though it just came out a few months ago and it is a novelty, I mean that some of us try to force the acceptance of pan on others. It should not be like this. No one tries to force a sax on any one. A sax is an international music instrument. The steelpan is strongly approaching that status now. We should not try to force any local or foreign company to paint an image of the pan on their letterheads or products. It should be a voluntary thing based out of natural love. We can request companies both local an international to help promote the actual products of the pan. These are the musicians and their music and the related histories in magazines. An image or printed painting of a pan is really not valuable to the pan and pan man in any way. It has very little copyrights if any. What is copyrightable and patentable value, is the pan music and the various processes of making a pan.
In other words we have to go past the sentiments that do not have commercial value. It is commercial value the pan and pan men need. This will help both products. Not just a painting on a motorcar, a building or an airplane which we think is "we own". The rest of the world does not care whether it is ours. If they find and opening to make money with the pan, they will jump with it. This is happening. We must stop the foolish requests of other and engage them in actual money value, and show them where they can make extra millions by helping to sell the actual pan, pan music and musicians. As a music business consultant, I know these facts how business persons look at things. BWIA's past sentiments of painting a pan image on their planes didnt help them with actual sales. It was merely a sweet gesture on their part at the time. I strongly hold the view that the type of requests by Arnold and associates should be more of a commecial value to the organization and the pan industry as a whole.
Pan people are hopeless romantics that have a undying love affair with the steelpan instrument and music. Unfortunately this unwavering commitment has nothing to do with the reality of the environments in which pan people often find themselves operating in. With this in mind, if the image of the steelpan is really that important to the pan players of Trinidad then they must be prepared to make a statement. There are only three options from my perspective.
One - as Sidd mentioned in his post - come up with a monster business plan that will make so much money for the airlines they will gladly paint logo's on the planes and even rename the airlines "Steelpan Airlines". Business people for the most part have no ethics, morality or commitment to anything but money.
Two - Strike! - Absolutely no pan in TnT for the whole of 2007. Caribbean Airlines might bow under the pressure because it just would not make business sense to them for a new airline to attract this kind of early publicity. Of course any group that can demonstrate this kind of resolve would immediately receive the respect and attention of the business community because they have shown that they can and are willing to effect their bottom line - "profits". I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. The last serious move by the pan community was in 2001 in New York. A golden opportunity was missed. They failed to get the job done. The steelband community could have owned New York by now, but incompetent leadership brought them right back to the plantation. Still it is the most significant move by pan people in almost thirty years. Similar to St. Vincent's recent no 'pay no pan' for carnival - Antigua's pan community pulled a major stop for this year's panorama over a number of issues. The results are inconclusive as we must watch to see how things unfold 2007.
Three - Go to corner and cry - which is pretty much what this generation of pan folks are use to doing.
Well, I looked at the old BWI airlines graphics and I looked at the new CA graphics and I think the new artwork is definitely an improvement. Besides being more colorful, I think it represents the natural beauty of the islands that CA will service. And the abstract pan art on the old BWI equipment was unrecognizable to many. So, good luck to the new Caribbean Airlines as they start with a clean ledger in January.
Then I went to the URL with the story about Mr Arnold expressing "displeasure and concern" that the pan icon is gone from the aircraft graphics. Maybe I'm missing something here but a cultural icon or image is the responsibility of the people and the society they represent, not an airline business. "Displeasure and concern" are the right level of emotion for changes to product labels.
So I have to ask, what activities are Mr Arnold and Pan Trinibago involved with to promote and preserve the Pan icon? Where is the National Pan Museum? In a period of time where pan legends are passing away and taking their living history with them, I would think that a National Pan museum would be the best way of preserving the rich history of Pan for the youngest worldwide generation of Pan enthusiasts. In fairness to PT, I frequently read that the government doesn't provide much in the way of funding and support. OK, I'll accept that. However, this same Government has given and loaned the financially inept BWI Airlines over US$100M in the last 5 years to keep the company solvent. The Government obviously values tourism so why isn't PT making a compelling case here for the very same reason?
My apology to any one I might offend but expressing "displeasure and concern" isn't going to make anyone repaint airplanes or provide funding support to take positive steps at preserving the pan culture in the T&T. It ought to be viewed as a wake up call to stop talking and take action.
They should have improved the steel pans graphics on all their planes. What a dumb move to replace it with the hummingbird.... They could have combined the hummingbird AND Pans into something really nice........... Wonder Who made this decision and why?? Maybe the the Pan logo on planes/airports will reappear in Akron, Ohio, or Switzerland or Japan where pan is recognized and most appreciated.....
"Maybe the the Pan logo on planes/airports will reappear in Akron, Ohio, or Switzerland or Japan where pan is recognized and most appreciated.....""
That's precisely what should happen and it will have more effect. Believe it or not. It is not for T&T to push pan. It is the duty of the rest of the world to do so now that we have given it to he rest of the world. The rest of the world should push it and make millions and help the poor elderly pan pioneers who discovered it and gave it to the world.
sidd3, Thanks for all your informative discussions, I particularly liked the Pan in the Savannah discussions, and of course this one "No more Pan in the sky" I think we as T&T people get caught up in the rethoric of giving suggestions and advice, but we don't take it. Myself included, there is a calpyso about "We never miss the water til the well run dry". Well true dat. Pantrinbago could have had the Airline logo on the agenda when they had there vote and meetings. but everyone was caught up in personalities. It's the same thing here in New York, we are busy criticizing, and don't get me wrong there is a lot to criticize. However, no one is offering viable solutions as to how we can effect positive change, Everyone in this forum has great ideas, but noone is willing to implement.
Everyone is looking to the USSA, WIDCA etc. but these Associations don't seem to care what Pannists or lovers of Pan think. Like Sidd suggested maybe a wakeup call is needed, but for those who can't travel to T&T for Panorama and Carnival, it seems destined that we will always be treated with disrespect by these visible Associations that Panpeople have put in place.
One of the mistakes that we continue to make is to put pan men/women in charge of the various pan associations both international and in T&T. I quote a lot of Boogsie, not because he is special or any thing, but because he is quite intelligent in his own way. He is one if the first pan men I continue to hear saying that pan men should not be put into pan associations like Pan Trinbago. He says that because they havent sufficient business training and qualifications, they cannot drive the association in a true businesslike manner. They remain sentimental pan men/women. He is absolutely right. Pan associations inherited T&T's concept of putting pan men to run pan associations. This came about from the early days where pan men had to do everything. This needs to be changed immediately. Hence I try to propagate myself as a music business consultant. This is what the pan is all about. It is a musical instrument of the world and does not actually belong to T&T in any way. It was first created in T&T and that's about it. It really belongs to the world. The pan men and women who play the pan are really musicians whose first choice is the pan. Persons who make the pans are really business persons who run a manufacturing concern producing the pan- the musical instrument. Persons who write and arrange songs for pan are really song writers. Persons who sell the pans or promote pan players are really musical promoters/business persons. Persons who run pan associations are really business persons/promoters.
All these various types of operators need to become part of the international music industry, instead of thinking themselves pan men and women. This era of thinking like that will no longer reap any benefits. In fact it may defeat the purpose. People need to be educated in the various related fields instead of "playing it by air" culture the pan started with. If we are to move the pan truly into world recognition, the pan industry is really no different from the saxophone industry. Either you play one, make one, or write music for one. In each case all must know the various aspects of business to be truly successful. Hence I do not ascribe to simplicities as having a pan emblem on a plane. How would that benefit the pan. If you think of it carefully, who are the people who see a plane's body every day. Only the airport workers. That's not very much people. But if the travelling public has a pan CD or DVD as a gift for having used the airline. Now that's something.
sidd you're quite right, i'm ashamed to say I still thought about BWIA with the old emblem before the pan, when the colors were the Queen's colors. and you know it's true and great that BWIA thought about adding the pan on it's planes, but it's not something that was voted upon. Anyway the suggestion that a magazine be added in a quarterly format about pan local and international is a very viable promotion as we have a lot of news and information about pan worldwide. I can see the airline promoting itself, pan and other music that is indigenous to the Carribbean. Like "When Steel Talks".
Since you are much better than my history books, believe me i never learnt all that information you provided about our Grand Savannah not in school. and I went to school at Belmont St. Francois Girls and we never learnt anything about that. my brother went to QRC and i had to send him a copy of your notes in Canada 'cause he did not know either. Anyhow my question is this. If we want to honor one of our Panmen, who we say is one of the greatest, Mr. Bradley, say with a government medal or sometype of award. which branch of the government can we write to. I think we've read about him, we know how much of his live he sacrificed and since we don't have a museum here or anywere except Dingolay4 Website, I would like to write and have others who are like minded do so to the proper authorities. not only Mr. Bradley, but Mr. Samaroo, Mr. Sharpe, Mr. Mannette, who produces the instruments at 2 sites here in America. I'll welcome your information. Thank's for the history lesson
Sidd, you come across as a bitter defeatist. Are you saying that you would have voted for the removal of the steelpan logo from the Caribbean Airlines, if you were on their board? Are you saying that if you were the head of marketing of the pan instrument for Trinidad, or Pan Trinbago, you would not consider the national airline of you country as a prime choice area for promoting the instrument?
The international community owes you, or Trinidad, nothing. You're Trinidadian - pan in Trinidad is your problem. If you can't even get your national airline to promote your national instrument it's a reflection on you and your fellow-Trinidadians. Keeping the pan (prominently) on the plane is a no-brainer.
It may be that you do not understand my posts. Sometimes persons respond like you, when they are once and for all told that pan does not actually belong to Trinidad only. It is a very revolutionery thought which runs contrary to popular opinion. It requires coming to reality a bit more and putting down sentimental thinking which never last for long.
There are more pan players outside of T&T in the rest of the world. There are more pan developments, pan factories, pan tuners, pan arrangers, pan musicians. There is also much more money available to produce and promote pan and pan players outside of T&T. There are much more people willing to place large sums of money into viable projects in the international music business than in T&T. Pan is part of the international music business or at least it should be. There are more successful pan players outside of T&T. There are much more song writers and genres of music outside of T&T, that are capable of writing music for the pan. There are much more inventions and processes for producing finer sounding pans and more electronic equipment and technologies for proper recording and amplification of pans. There are much more metals and various alloys including gold and silver available in the rest of the world to help produce yet a better sounding pan than today's standard than in T&T. These are the realities. These are not sentimentalities. Look up the word sentimental and you would see that it is a weak system of human thinking. It is based on weak understanding rather than real understanding.
Have you ever spoken to men like Ellie Manette, Bertie Marshall, and Anthony Williams? They represent the foremost pan inventors who are still alive. Of the three, the most successful one is Ellie, not because he knows anything better than the other two about pan, but because he made the most conscious effort to get out of T&T and not depend on handouts both from the public and private sector. He went to United States and he propagated and made pans there instead. His idea is that the pan is really a musical instrument intended for the world and not only for T&T and responsibility only coming from T&T. If you were speaking to anyone of these three, they would immediately give up your association and not bother with you. The moral is pan really more belongs to the world than to T&T and more help will come from there. The problem is most of the international "players" in the industry follow blindly and think that T&T should be the lead for pan and the pan men progress. This is wrong and is based on sentimentality and should be given up. This is my distinct contribution to the pan world. Do not follow T&T's idea about the pan because it is too sentimental. Create new and improved ones for the pan. T&T's idea about the pan is too much based on sentimentals. It therefore cannot be followed blindly.
Your question- If I ran Pantrinbago, I wouldnt as CA for 5 cents. I would ask them for a 500 million deal which would automatically contain the 5 cents. This is how you approach multi millionaire organizations in the music business.
You asked Anyhow my question is this. If we want to honor one of our Panmen, who we say is one of the greatest, Mr. Bradley, say with a government medal or sometype of award. which branch of the government can we write to. I think we've read about him, we know how much of his live he sacrificed and since we don't have a museum here or anywere except Dingolay4 Website, I would like to write and have others who are like minded do so to the proper authorities. not only Mr. Bradley, but Mr. Samaroo, Mr. Sharpe, Mr. Mannette, who produces the instruments at 2 sites here in America. I'll welcome your information. Thank's for the history lesson
The ministry would be the Ministry of Culture, Gender and Youth Affairs in the first instance and then the ministry if not the same that is in charge of distributing the award medals like The Humming Bird (again the poor humming bird) and now the changed Trinity Cross etc. But personally I would much rather see the public (govt) and private sector come together and createa grant which pays pan pioneers and persons who have made valuable contributions towards pan and pan men, a month annuity of at least $12,000 T&T dollars, so that they can live comfortable in their reclining years.
This I would try to develop under a new govt which could happen in the up coming elections. The present party do not actually care sufficiently about thse things. If they cared they would have done it a long time ago. They have become cold to people and hot only for the oil and gas monies, so that they can pay themselves plenty money.
As a graphic artist who work in advertisting and marketing for some years now, I'm a member of North Stars Steelband (St. Lucia) and visit TnT for mas & pan without fail. I love pan to de bone and took notice of the pan design changes to BWI from day one. It was very pleasing to me seeing that the instrument had reach so far.
Anyway on the other hand I will have to side with sidd3 comments.
We have to understand the world of marketing esspecially now that we in the caribbean are growing, take cricket world cup in March and all the protocal in how and what can be shown. Its a serious business of setting images & brands and can become very technical an issue. If the new Caribbean Airline see for some reason that using the old motif weather its a pan or not as not the right way to actually move foward and start a new, Who are we to disagree and why arnt we the ones to big up our love for pan and spread it all over the world. Hey Pan is really becoming a global entity folks. I sence a little selfish feeling coming across, no disrespect to TnT for actally pioneering the movement in the early days. One Pan, One Love, One Culture.
with due respect to all concerned........we need to stop the constant confusion that comes across pan in the caribbean....somehow we have not gotten out of that mental slavery..which causes such problems.....we need to start asking ourselves questions...what we can do to change our image,to sell the product on a higher level...what has causes the european communities and now africa to show such great appreciation and marketing the way they do......pan started in our region but we have allowed the bigger countries to take control just as we did with our lives....we need to start moving in a different direction...stop the petty we are better and move forward with one voice....lets focus on whats important..forget the negative and lets move on...we cant bash the business for their views and marketing strategies...but rather find a way to get them to see our point of view and embrace whats ours........ repsect mike ............north stars massive ..............stlucia
boogsie he is half right,,, because in a lot of pro sports there are former players running it ...and there are a lot of qulified pan people out there ,,. look at when steel talk ...but we need to pick the best qulified to run it... if its a panman so be it ...MOMO ----- Original Message ----- From: "sidd3" To: "When Steel Talks" Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Pan vs No Pan On Plane
----------------------------------------------------------- From: sidd3 Message 19 in Discussion
birdpepper
One of the mistakes that we continue to make is to put pan men/women in charge of the various pan associations both international and in T I quote a lot of Boogsie, not because he is special or any thing, but because he is quite intelligent in his own way. He is one if the first pan men I continue to hear saying that pan men should not be put into pan associations like Pan Trinbago. He says that because they havent sufficient business training and qualifications, they cannot drive the association in a true businesslike manner. They remain sentimental pan men/women. He is absolutely right. Pan associations inherited T concept of putting pan men to run pan associations. This came about from the early days where pan men had to do everything. This needs to be changed immediately. Hence I try to propagate myself as a music business consultant. This is what the pan is all about. It is a musical instrument of the world and does not actually belong to T in any way. It was first created in T and that's about it. It really belongs to the world. The pan men and women who play the pan are really musicians whose first choice is the pan. Persons who make the pans are really business persons who run a manufacturing concern producing the pan- the musical instrument. Persons who write and arrange songs for pan are really song writers. Persons who sell the pans or promote pan players are really musical promoters/business persons. Persons who run pan associations are really business persons/promoters.
All these various types of operators need to become part of the international music industry, instead of thinking themselves pan men and women. This era of thinking like that will no longer reap any benefits. In fact it may defeat the purpose. People need to be educated in the various related fields instead of "playing it by air" culture the pan started with. If we are to move the pan truly into world recognition, the pan industry is really no different from the saxophone industry. Either you play one, make one, or write music for one. In each case all must know the various aspects of business to be truly successful. Hence I do not ascribe to simplicities as having a pan emblem on a plane. How would that benefit the pan. If you think of it carefully, who are the people who see a plane's body every day. Only the airport workers. That's not very much people. But if the travelling public has a pan CD or DVD as a gift for having used the airline. Now that's something.
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unless the airlines are own bye the goverment of trinidad & tobago ...then we can hold our goverment responcable for putting the pan logo on the airlines ....but pravitely own buinesses thats another story ...bye law they have the rights to put what ever on the airlines .....MOMO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Another_View" To: "When Steel Talks" Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 6:15 AM Subject: Re: Pan vs No Pan On Plane
> ----------------------------------------------------------- > > New Message on When Steel Talks > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From: Another_View > Message 10 in Discussion > > The Humming Bird logo is quite nice, but we should somehow incorporate the > Steelpan logo with the Hummingbird. After all, "Pan is We". > > Sincerely, > Arlene. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > To stop getting this e-mail, or change how often it arrives, go to your > E-mail Settings. > http://groups.msn.com/WhenSteelTalks/_emailsettings.msnw > > Need help? If you've forgotten your password, please go to Passport Member > Services. > http://groups.msn.com/_passportredir.msnw?ppmprop=help > > For other questions or feedback, go to our Contact Us page. > http://groups.msn.com/contact > > If you do not want to receive future e-mail from this MSN group, or if you > received this message by mistake, please click the "Remove" link below. On > the pre-addressed e-mail message that opens, simply click "Send". Your > e-mail address will be deleted from this group's mailing list. > mailto:WhenSteelTalks-remove@groups.msn.com
If the steelpan cannot be representative of the whole Caribbean then there must be doubt on whether the hummingbird is a fitting symbol. Both are images linked with Trinidad and Tobago. Perhaps if Caribbean Airlines wanted to be all inclusive then the common image should be a Palm tree or a Mango tree. This is typical of image makers, they haven't a clue.
Both the hummingbird and the steelpan should be used.
Randi Curvan
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Sidd, I know it's a bitter pill to swallow, but yes, it's true pan no longer belongs "exclusively to T&T. We gave birth to it, but for some time now, we have been playing catch up and many T&T people aren't even aware of that reality. Perhaps they need to get around a bit more. Pan is not only on de move - pan done move out long time! So while we're still stuck on the sentimentality of pan being "we ting', many people in far away places are focusing on exploiting this gold mine that is "the future of pan" on the world stage. Ellie Mannette made a decision, long time ago, to take pan international, even to the point of turning his back on the US based Trini pan scene. Many have called him a traitor, because they simply did not, (and probably still don't) understand his world vision, as far as pan is concerned.
If only we can paint a proper image of pan on the rest of the world, and not worry to much about painting it on a few aircrafts. This is the difference I present, and it comes from understanding the desires and wishes of the founding inventors. They all do not regard how pan is treated in T&T. They do not associate with philosophies which prohibits the pan from going internationally. If it is found that people speak only of T&T as the mecca of pan, they will walk away from that crowd. It is of no use to them.
stale as hell... all dey had to do was remove de steelpan from de bottom part of de current bwee planes and dey woulda be good to go. dat new plane is coskell and plain looking at the same time.
Originally Posted by Tha Fugitive View Post Is the humming bird the national bird of TNT?
TnT is the "land of the humming bird"...the english translation of it's First Nation name "Iere".
Caribbean Airlines is meant to be representative of the region when market outside the caribbean, so I understand them not wanting to tie it specifically to TnT. The decision still sucks ass though.
TnT is the "land of the humming bird"...the english translation of it's First Nation name "Iere".
Caribbean Airlines is meant to be representative of the region when market outside the caribbean, so I understand them not wanting to tie it specifically to TnT. The decision still sucks ass though.
Cool thanks...but I still feel they could have kept the pan because it played in most islands inspite of its origin....
I dont know nah, but when ah say people ral chupid oui. You dealing business with a business man that wants to use your country as the launching pad for his new Airline, understandable that the name it self suppose to serve the entire caribbean, but at least the governement could have have the Pan logo somewhere on the aircraft to identify its origin. Other Caribbean islands now accepts the Humming Bird as its national bird if not most tourist do not think of the humming bird as a TnT National bird they think of the Caribbean. And plus the humming bird is a bit over used. The Pan should have stayed but hey, if thats how they do business down there, develop nationa status by 2020 meh foot.
I dont know nah, but when ah say people ral chupid oui. You dealing business with a business man that wants to use your country as the launching pad for his new Airline, understandable that the name it self suppose to serve the entire caribbean, but at least the governement could have have the Pan logo somewhere on the aircraft to identify its origin. Other Caribbean islands now accepts the Humming Bird as its national bird if not most tourist do not think of the humming bird as a TnT National bird they think of the Caribbean. And plus the humming bird is a bit over used. The Pan should have stayed but hey, if thats how they do business down there, develop nationa status by 2020 meh foot.
I think that is what BNS was explaining as a possible theory for the usage of the hummingbird because it seems to associate less with a particular island and more regional...but i could be wrong
I think that is what BNS was explaining as a possible theory for the usage of the hummingbird because it seems to associate less with a particular island and more regional...but i could be wrong
They definitely going for a more generic, regional appeal...and probably want to distance themselves from the colonial connotations and poor record of customer service associated with the name BWIA
They definitely going for a more generic, regional appeal...and probably want to distance themselves from the colonial connotations and poor record of customer service associated with the name BWIA
I agree. It would be one thing if they were trying to build upon the goodwill of a predecessor, but why remind consumers of their bad experiences with BWIA? It's about creating a new image for a new company.
Trinidad's new Caribbean Airlines will no longer carry the image of the steelpan instrument on its planes. Here is a look at the new planes and the previous BWIA airlines logo.
__________________ "EXCUSES are TOOLS of INCOMPETENCE used by MONUMENTS of NOTHINGNESS.....THOSE who SPECIALIZE IN THEM SELDOM EXCEL in ANYTHING else."
I agree. It would be one thing if they were trying to build upon the goodwill of a predecessor, but why remind consumers of their bad experiences with BWIA? It's about creating a new image for a new company.
i think this is most likely the reason the log was changed completely.
i coulda design dat ugly hummingbird plane in photoshop mehself.
It looks like a photoshop job. lol
but alas, the steelpan was part of a logo of a soon-to-be defunct company. Keeping it is akin to American Airlines adopting the world logo from Pan Am.
i'm sure deh wanna create a totally different image for the new airline so that it is not tied to the old bwee but dat new plane looks crappy! besides de fact dat it eh have a pan on it.
i'm sure deh wanna create a totally different image for the new airline so that it is not tied to the old bwee but dat new plane looks crappy! besides de fact dat it eh have a pan on it.
yeah...not feeling it either, to me nutten about the color scheme conveys "caribbean"....hopefully it changes in two-three years.
I think that is what BNS was explaining as a possible theory for the usage of the hummingbird because it seems to associate less with a particular island and more regional...but i could be wrong
No, you're right.
The name is Caribbean Airlines so they want a logo that's not too indigenous to just one country but the whole region.
Someone mentioned a Scarlet Ibis, but that also defeats the purpose being that it lives only in Trinidad and Venezuela.
It is unfortunate that an airline based in Trinidad would not use the steelpan logo. This should not be surprising however. Anyone who was present at the 2006 panorama semi-finals in Trinidad got to witness first hand the type of disrespect certain sectors of the Trinidad population has for the steelpan instrument. As an outsider I was appalled by the behavior displayed by many people who would attended this event. It was very perplexing. Why did they bother to come?
On the surface the removal of the steelpan logo would appear to be nothing more than a business decision. However, after experiencing last years semi finals it appears to be another systematic pimple of Trinidad's social ills.
Sidd3 I am confused why you as a Trinidadian would campaign against having a steelpan logo adopted by any major Trinidadian business.
Your experiences in panorama 2006 backs up what I write about and why the original inventors, men like Ellie Mannette, Bertie Marshall, Anthony Williams do not attend the modern panoramas in T&T and elsewhere. They don't regard it as properly presenting the pan instruments. Do not follow T&T's way of treating pan and pan men. It is disrespectful due to a mental flaw of sentimentality ( a kind of phychological disorder) in some people under-educated in a subject matter and taking the pan and panmen for granted. This is why one must educate himself and not remain a fool.
You said you do not understand why I do not support placing an emblem on a local airline as valuable. Try to understand my posts. When BWIA painted an emblem of the pan on their aircrafts, they did so at their own sentiments and costs. No one requested or asked, or forced them. It is a very costly item to paint and repaint an aircraft at regular times. It is not a letterhead printing we are speaking about. The actual painting of a pan on BWIA did not sell the pan in any way to the rest of the world. There was no physical monetary gain which returned to this country or BWIA because of the painted emblem. It was done out of sentimentality only and not for actual monetary gain which would be both beneficial for the airline and pan, and pan men. What my posts are bringing is the breaking of a psychological block called sentimental thinking, which do not actually bring real returns and in fact may cause many imbalances. I wrote about this psychological blocks in most T&T persons in relation to the pan and pan persons about a year ago on this forum. So it is not something I am now making up.
From a business point of view, costs in a business must not be based on sentimentality, if it is not going to give adequate returns. BWIA fell through the window financially, due to giving away their profits in various ways.
When Patrick Arnold and all other T&T folks request a new company CA to put back the pan emblem, as though the emblem is sacred, as though without it the pan wont be properly represented worldwide, as though it wouldnt costs anything to repaint their planes and they havent made a cent yet, as though CA would make more money, as though money would come back to pan and pan men on account of the painted emblem. This is called sentimental thinking and is a kind of madness really.
My posts on the other hand, suggests that CA incorporates a financial deal by helping to sell Cds/DVDs of pan men/women, panoramas of the past, magazines if available etc. The same costs it would take to paint and repaint an emblem on the outside body of CA's planes, that costs should be applied instead to the purchase of CDs/DVDs/magazines of local and Caribbean pannists, if not worldwide. These could now be inside the body of the plane and on the laps of passengers as they travel. CA's financial wizards will factor in the costs of the products into the costs of the air travel and make it look like they are giving away the gifts. The traveller benefits because he pays very little for the CD or DVD, than if he were to buy it in a record shop. Caribbean people will love CA for this and will fly with them more often. After some time, worldwide pannists can come in and thus have added gain through this means.
Now you tell me which of the two requests is the better. 1 Paint and emblem of the pan outside the body of the plane which the passengers does not actually see regularly. 2 CDS/DVDs/pan magazines on the laps of passengers inside the body of the plane, which makes money for the airline and the pan men. Give me an honest answer based on reality and not sentimentality.
I don't agree with you at all. I have absolutely no problems with the panorama show in Trinidad & Tobago. I couldn't care less what the reasons were that a country the size of Trinidad was putting my logo on their national airline (be it sentimental or for business reasons). Having your logo on an airline is a major marketing and promotions coup. If Caribbean Airlines (CA) would put my business logo on their planes I would give every passenger a CD, DVD and magazine for free as promotional items. Every piece of stationary, uniform, promotional item and commercial that CA produces would have my logo attached to it. This is free advertising for my company. I would be out of my mind not to want this.
As far as selling CDs and DVDs on the plane, that's not something I would go for. If anything, my experience at last year's panorama semi finals showed me that the majority of the people out of Trinidad would not want the CDs/DVDs even for free. Attracting or teaching your own citizens to appreciate pan music seems to be your biggest problem. The crowd in the "North Stands" did a pretty good job of teaching foreigners how to disrespect your music.
As for your questions - think of me as the vp of international marketing for Microsoft. The answer is obvious. We would prefer our logo to be incorporated by the airline. Brand recognition, product awareness and an association with a great cultural experience comes first. With this in place, then will the ability to move a hundred times more product in the very near future, than could travelers on a plane full of people, who in this case, may not even have a favorable view of your product. Remember that it is the advertising to the larger world - my target audience - via the airline, as opposed to the solely bodies that travel in the plane itself.
The removal of the steel pan image from the airline has only reinforced the strange behavior I experienced last year at the semi finals. Mr. Sidd, if you cure the reasons for THAT type of behavior toward your own 'national instrument', you won't need international help. And only then will Trinidad be the true Mecca of pan. I think you are speaking to the wrong group about psychological issues. From my perspective as a foreigner, those people in the North Stands are actually social misfits in the pan arena, and displayed incurable cases of contempt. Furthermore, I think you are fooling yourself if you are unwilling, or cannot, address that segment of the Trinidad population.
To continue, it is the foreigners who will help with the pan and pan men/women. It is also their responsibility to do so. When pan was first created, it was foreigners like the oil companies who were here for T&T oil, and came with their oil barrels. The little poor boys were bared by the colonial govt at the time-before 1956 from expressing their frustrations through playing the tamboo bamboos. So they created the beating on rubbish cans. They soon discovered some notes and there the pan was born. You know the rest. So the pan is not entirely the creation of T&T. It is combination local T&T poor boys discovery and the foreign oil companies indirect inputs. As such the foreign oil companies were the first financial supporters as well as moral supporters and friends of the poor boys. They even gave them jobs at their oil companies.
I am writing to not local persons but specifically foreigners like yourself, because some foreigners were wrongly educated about the pan also, thinking it to be a totally T&T thing. In its discovery, the foreigners were also involved and they helped. So the pan from day one has an international input. This is not explained sufficiently and most T&T locals think that it is purely a T&T input thing. This is wrong. This accounts for its keep back as well. The early inventors know these facts and have tried to explain it in their own way. But because they were not educated in terms of writing and so on it was not appreciated. However by age, they are able to explain better. They know for a fact that foreigners if it were not for their early help, it wont have happened. The inventors desires is for the pan to be continued internationally like all other musical instruments and really come out of the hands of T&T locals thinking it to be a local thing that we can fool around with only. This why pan men to this date do not get paid for playing pan. The locals don’t think they have to be paid nor the pan players didn’t think they have to be paid. It’s only now that is beginning to change and thus the various uproars from various sectors.
The posts and writings I do, help to remove the misinformation in foreigners rather than locals, for the foreigners are more important than the locals in terms of actually doing something substantial with the pan internationally. So I say to the foreigners pan lovers, players promoters, do not follow the T&T standard of treating pan and pan players. It’s all wrong and that is why it has not progressed the way it should be in T&T. My posts is to tell the foreigners its equally now your duty to push the pan to all its glory so that everyone involved can earn a living out of the industry internationally. Don’t wait for T&T to do it first else you will wait another 75 years. Thank God that is not the case. So I say that local pan is not going to be helped by putting a drawing on airplanes. It will quicker be helped by foreigners not blindly following the standards set in T&T for the pan and pan players. Foreigners should develop the pan and pan industry, just as how the other musical instruments and followers did. It must be well organized into the various industries and so on. If you know of foreign investors who you think might be interested in investing in any part of the pan industry, let me know immediately. Don’t tell guys like Patrick Arnold. They cannot help.
You sound like your own worst enemy. I can only go by what I experienced in your country. I can also tell you if you're looking for some outside deliverance that's not likely to happen. Furthermore, I think you have things totally upside down. I think you mistake an abundance of disposable income for support. Anyway, pan in Trinidad is your problem. I wish you good luck.
"I can also tell you if you're looking for some outside deliverance that's not likely to happen. "
Pan was delivered to the outside since in the early fifties. What are you speaking about? The best development of pan is on the outside. What's wrong with you. There are more monies spent on the pan outside than in T&T. What calculations are you doing?
You said "Anyway, pan in Trinidad is your problem."
Pan in Trinidad is not my problem. It is not a problem and that is the problem. People do not make it a problem and so they cant find a solution.
You said "I can only go by what I experienced in your country."
It is possible that your previous experience before arriving in T&T was misinformed and you experienced the raw realities of illiterate persons at Panorama 2006 and people who dont make a solution for pan because they dont have a problem with how it is right now in T&T.
You said "You sound like your own worst enemy."
And this is a good qualification to have of pan in T&T. I cannot be friendly with the sentimentality of persons who keep pan back, so that when persons like you come expecting something good in behaviour towards pan, you get a shock and disappointment. Therefore I cannot sound like a best friend towards pan in T&T and say pan is ok, Panorama is nice, a painting of pan should be on CA's plane at any costs to them, just because they are a T&T company.
It is more than obvious that you are hearing the truth of pan for the first time. It is also obvious you have never read about how the original inventors, those who are alive feel about pan in T&T. If you had read their writings, you would not have been so shocked in attending Panorama 2006, yet it is the Northstand crowds that best appreciate and support Panorama. If it werent for them, Panorama would die a natural death.
So you are confused about something else which you are not telling us clearly.
Panwoman 3, It would behove you to do a lil' more research and get a deeper insight into this pan thing,....in all it's aspects, before you start mouthing off like that. I get the impression that, "you might know book-but not chapter". Let's not even talk about verse! Even if your intentions are good; it would take much more than your good intentions to get you on the same page as someone like Sidd33. So please, my dear, don't allow yourself to fall into this trap of "saying too much, while knowing too little".
